Mark Driscoll On The Future Of Worship Music
January 6th, 2007 by Matt Heerema | Posted in Ministry Philosophy, New Music, Song Writing
From the “850 Words” E-newsletter from Relevant Magazine.
Editor’s Note: In the latest issue of RELEVANT, we got the chance to ask seven leaders about seven big questions facing the Church. Here’s an excerpt from their responses. To read more, be sure to check out the January/February issue of the mag.
What trends in church and worship styles do you see? Are they positive or negative?
Mark Driscoll: I’ll be happy when we have more than just prom songs to Jesus sung by some effeminate guy on an acoustic guitar offered as mainstream worship music. Right now most worship music is still coming from the top down through such things as Christian radio and record labels. But the trend today in a lot of churches is writing your own music to reflect your culture and community, and I pray this trend of music from the bottom up continues.
The prom-song to Jesus may be a bit harsh, but it’s not inaccurate. He’s right, most music used in the church is coming from the top down, I think mostly because a lot of worship leaders in local churches cough don’t have the time or the skill to write their own.
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“Mark Driscoll: I’ll be happy when we have more than just prom songs to Jesus sung by some effeminate guy on an acoustic guitar offered as mainstream worship music.”
Matt, thank you for posting this. Its a great topic. I don’t know if you picked up on this too, but I was actually quite offended by the “effeminate guy on an acoustic guitar” comment though. I’m not sure what Driscoll was getting at with that comment, but to me it seems a blatant attack on character.
I have to admit that a few mainstream musicians come to mind, but then I remember that God himself gave those men soft tenor voices and skills on an acoustic guitar. I hope Driscoll is just saying that he likes more of the harder rock music that’s coming out of the grass roots christian music scene…but his words don’t show that. I see a rude flippant remark ignored because of the good wisdom surrounding it.
I’m really quite shocked that such a prominent person, and such a prominent magazine, would publish such a hurtfull comment about the life and character of men they know nothing about. It doesn’t just attack their character, but their relationship with God from which their songs and style of worship was born.
I don’t know if anybody else sees this, and on some level it doesn’t really matter because it really did hurt me. I’ve taken a full 10 days to really think about this just to make sure that I should really even be upset. I think my point to end this is that being in a position to reform, edify, change the music culture of church gives no excuse to discard the love that Christ calls us to just to make a point. Love is not rude, and rude will always hurt whether its directed to the individual or expressed in a general philosophy.
Thanks for reading this if you’ve gotten this far. I realize that I might just simply be hurt and not see the whole picture here, so let me know what y’all think.
Dan
Dan – I’ve been trying to think on how to respond to your comments. So I’ll start by apologizing for offending you. That was not the intent.
By way of explanation, I’m not going to try to “cover” for Driscoll’s comments, but I’ll try to cover for the reason I posted them.
1) I don’t think he was calling out anyone in particular. I think he was speaking more to an attitude, or industry influence than a personality. He was calling out the industry influence over the style of music. That is, the bottom line driving how music is written, produced, and performed, rather than mission driving these things.
2) If he was calling a person out, does that automatically make him wrong?
3) He has very strong vision and opinions about how he steers his church (under the direction of the Holy Spirit) and mainstream worship music does not fit in with that vision. It couldn’t in a culture like Seattle.
I probably have more that I’ll post later, but I posted these comments mostly to rock the boat and get discussion happening. Thank you for taking the time to think and feel about this and post your response.
I love that Driscoll quote. Thanks for posting this Matt.
Welcome, Dan. Interesting that your music at Riverview is VERY similar to theirs.
Matt, Thanks for the reply. Just for the record, I wasn’t upset with you for posting it. It was just that comment that really got to me. I’ve had a lot of really mean people effect my life in the past, so I’m probably pretty sensitive to that sort of thing.
I thought of this verse after writing my post.
James 3:1 Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. (NIV)
After I started leading a small group here I realized how much my words meant to people. They were really looking to me for guidance, so even the smallest side comment was paid attention to and acted upon. It was quite humbling,and made me grow a whole lot. If I’m judging too strictly, this is probably why. I was digging through a lot of thoughts and emotions at the time I wrote that post, so there’s probably some things in there that weren’t totally in line with the Spirit. I mean, the guy is an elder, which I think I discounted some.
Like I said in my first post, I agree with each point he is making, and the same goes for all 3 points you just made. The only problem I have is with the method of delivery.
My whole thought here is that he could have just found a better way to say what he said.
Thanks again for writing back!
Dan
What a load! I’m sorry, but I’ll be the one to call him out on this one.
“some effeminate guy on an acoustic guitar”
I don’t care if he’s trying to make a point about one or two particular people or not, but he’s made a generalized statement that blanket covers worship leaders like myself. Way to build up the body.
Not saying that he has this viewpoint, but I’m tired of the idea that “manly” is the guy who goes hunting, fixes his own car, watches football, and scratches his crotch. How’s that for a generalization?
I’m sorry, but read in Scripture about the real men of God who weren’t afraid to pour out their heart to the Lord. Stand up and be a leader in the church, in the home. Love your wife and children. Serve, sacrifice. All else is vain, and does not a man make.
Okay, I admit to not being objective about this quote. But in my opinion, Mark Driscoll and this comment rocks! Although this is just one part of the issue, the style of worship music, worship lyrics, how many worship songs, how worship music is presented, what does the worship singer look like, how does the worship leader hold himself, etc. is one of the many reasons that men are bored stiff in church, why men are not challenged in church and why men are turned off and not coming to church. For churches to bury their head in the sand and say, “If men don’t like the music, then tough crap!” is the wrong answer. If we know that when a man comes to church, the family will follow, why aren’t we making churches a place that men feel welcome. I went to a church on Sunday that has made changes to target men. I not only saw a whole lot of strong men. I also saw a whole lot of happy women who love seeing men get excited and passionate about church.
Mike Ellis Church For Men Florida 386-295-7739
I agree that the characterization of “some effeminate guy on an acoustic guitar” is un-called for and out of line. But then, that’s nothing new from Mark. With Mark it’s 50/50 whether it was unintentionally or purposefully inflamatory, ignorance or attitude. You gotta take anything Mark says with a grain of salt, look past the rhetoric for the real meaning.
As for wanting more original music from the bottom up, I couldn’t agree more. I wish our worship leader would sing more original material. I know there’s plenty. Although I’m sure Mark still wouldn’t like it because she’s an “effeminate” girl with an acoustic guitar.
I really don’t think Mark’s remarks should be taken offense to. If you are not an effeminant guy singing sappy songs to Jesus as your girlfriend, then be glad! You are not what Mark is talking about here.
If you are an effeminant guy singing prom songs to Jesus then you should either 1. Stop and consider if that’s the best way to lead worship. or 2. Defend why that’s ok.
Regardless of his tone what do you guys think of the content of Mark’s remark?
DanielR – Actually I know that there are female worship leaders that serve in Acts29 Churches, and that they are appreciated.
[...] Mark Driscoll on worship music: I’ll be happy when we have more than just prom songs to Jesus sung by some effeminate guy on an acoustic guitar offered as mainstream worship music. Right now most worship music is still coming from the top down through such things as Christian radio and record labels. But the trend today in a lot of churches is writing your own music to reflect your culture and community, and I pray this trend of music from the bottom up continues. [...]
I appreciate the comments about Christian radio. CCM is a pretty ugly world in my book. We write several of our worship songs, but then again, I’m probably just another effeminate guy w/an acoustic guitar. -I’ve yet to see anyone slow dancing with Jesus.
People slow dancing with Jesus would probably be a good thing
I think its interesting how fast we can flare up about protecting our manhood, and our identity in Christ. I think kind David was the ultimate man. He was a musician, a poet, a lover, and a ferocious warrior. Remember how God wouldn’t let him build the temple because he’d killed to many thousands of people? Whatever nich we fit into of manliness I think… well at least I know that I could more sure of myself.
Driscol’s whole reason for saying that was to get us to start thinking outside of the box and write some music! I actually just rewrote a song that I had written a few years ago with a new melody and a style that really fits what I want to say to God from my heart. Its exciting to find words that you can really worship to, because they are your very own prayers.
I really like how Driscol pointed out that writing your own music can really reflect your community and culture. Hearing the lyrics to what is coming out of the The Rock Church in Salt Lake City is a great example of that. They write their songs so honest that its refreshing just to hear the words! I’ve gotten to know some of them a little bit, and from the lyrics to how they live for and love Jesus, its just totally who they are!
I don’t think that they have band websites yet, but here is their church website address. You can also search for Steele Crosswhite.
http://www.experiencetherock.com
In reference to the quote:
“I’ll be happy when we have more than just prom songs to Jesus sung by some effeminate guy on an acoustic guitar offered as mainstream worship music.”
My brother went to the church we grew up in and played some modern worship songs for the congregation. Most of the congregation seemed to appreciate them and offered many thanks, but one person came up to him after the service and said:
“Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad you came. I just didn’t sing any of the songs because I can’t stand those 7/11 songs, you know, you sing the same 7 words 11 times.”
In speaking with my brother later, it was clear that comment really hurt, and was still sticking with him a week later.
Criticism is incredibly powerful. While I don’t fit the bill for Driscoll’s criticism, I have fit the bill for others, and I don’t believe this type of criticism has ever been edifying.
That is a great point Adam, I really agree with everything you said here. At the same time, there is a difference in my mind, in over-arching, teaching criticism that isn’t directed at an individual and specific criticism hurtful to one person. I think Driscol’s stuff should hurt any one person. It’s meant to teach.
So no “effeminate guy on an acoustic guitar”. Okay I get that, although, eys, it could be taken a tad offensively. So we wanna see worship leaders write their own songs. I love the idea, but what if say my song sounds similar to a so-called “prom-song”. Some people just feel it better that way. We are all made different. I don’t have a problem with trying all sorts of different styles of worship music. I mean, if the congregation can connect with God through a christian rave/techno type song, why aren’t we all doing those in our churches.
Also, what difference does it make if we sing our own song, or if we sing a new song in our church that has come from the top down. What is the point of writing our own songs for church. I don’t think we should be announcing that “oh I wrote this song. I hope you like it.” but as far as the congregation is concerned, we could have written every new song we introduce to our congregations. What if we write our own song and the congregation just can’t connect with it. Whether we love the song or not, leading worship is about bringing our congregation into God’s courtroom and focusing on Him. If a “top-down” song can do that better than a “bottom-up” song. I say scratch the “bottom-up” song.
Worship is not at all about us, it’s all about God. We have to select songs that help lead our congregation in worship as well as allowing ourselves to worship as well; whether that be through techno worship, rockin’ worship, or prom-songs…Top down or bottom up.
I am not in any way trying to bash bottom up music. We should all write our own songs as much as possible because who knows, we might write a gem that our congregation and ourselves can really connect with. So write away, but keep in mind, we have to think about God first, then our congregation and last, but most definately not least…ourselves.
Here’s a good test to figure out if you’re singing a “prom song to Jesus”. If you can insert the word “girl” or “baby” or “darling” and the song still makes sense, you’re singing a prom song to Jesus.
Anyone seen the South Park episode “Christian Rock Hard” where Cartman, Butters & Token start a christian rock band?
it’s brilliant.
[...] From the “850 Words” E-newsletter from Relevant Magazine. > Editor’s Note: In the latest issue of Mark Driscoll On The Future Of Worship Music. January 6th, 2007 by Matt Heerema | Posted in Song read more [...]
Mark Driscoll hits the nail right on the head! It is not inappropriate to call a man who has strong feminine attributes as “effeminate”. The problem is that “effeminate” men do not like to face the reality that they are not in fact masculine, they are in the words of John Eldredge “unfinished men”. Also, the fact is that most masculine men do not like going to church and a major factor is that worship leaders sing effeminate songs because they are usually effeminate men. My own worship leader is so effeminate that he comes off as a passive homosexual, I know that he is not yet nevertheless this is how he comes off when you see him (others have notice this about him as well so it is not just my impression). The plain fact is this: feminine styles of worship has simply become the norm in the church and the church has no idea what masculine worship looks like. I would encourage the effeminate men to both spend some time on the website Churchformen.com and read the book “Why Men Hate Going to Church” and I would also recommend reading all of the works of John Eldredge. The point is that if we want men (healthy masculine men) to come to church then the church needs to come to terms with the three A’s (Awareness, Acceptence, and Action). The church is only now becoming “aware” that it has become way too feminized and is hurting men spiritually in the process. Now the church is struggling with “acceptence” of this truth, and this can be seen on this blog where effeminate men are being insulted because we simpy state the truth that they are not masculine and simply do not know how to engage in worshipping in a masculine way. The last stage is “action” and this is where the church is actively trying to reintroduce masculine worship back into the church and I believe it is fair to say that only a handful of churches (such as Mark Driscoll’s) are at this point in the recovery process. I believe that the church for men movement is a work of The Spirit and that we by His power will be victorious in rooting out the unhealthy feminization of The Faith.
In Christ The Victorious King,
Doc Allen
Enough already! I don’t like that line either, but then I don’t like sarcasm period. Different churches have different flavors. Pick yours. As long as it stays about Jesus, is scriptural, pick the church with the style you like. Worship is a heart thing and hopefully the worship leader knows that and regardless of the style of music is there to lead the people into the throneroom of God.
Mark’s comment has certainly provoked a lot of discussion, which is a good thing.
I am fortunate enough to be part of a church which utilizes ‘locally-grown’ songs, as well as well-known choruses.
If you’d like to check out the mp3s and chord charts (free) you can go to: http://www.recentrainfall.com/page4.html
A couple of our songs have reached a wider audience by being featured on Worship Leader’s Song Discovery.
John
SD is a classic example of what is wrong with the church. Please remember that in my previous posting I wrote that before any problem can be solved one must have “awareness, acceptence, and action” and SD has not even hit the awareness part. SD states that, “Different churches have different flavors” and this goes to show that SD does not even understand the problem. The problem SD is that if you choose feminized worship music as your “flavor” what are the masculine men supposed to do, simply sing chick music and be happy? Well I have news for you this is never going to happen. Are you really lacking the common sense which should inform you that men and women are wired differently? If you fail to understand this let me enlighten you. Women tend to like “chick-lit” which centers around romance and relationships (how many men do you find flipping through the pages of a romance novel at Barnes & Noble); and men tend to like action oriented stuff like the “Jason Bourne” series or Tom Clancy’s books on “Jack Ryan”. When a person speaks about a “chick flick” it is once again usually understood that such movies center around the theme of romance or relationships, and when one speaks of guy movies people understand that these are probably action oriented and gory. So why do you fail to see that there is “chick worship music” such as the song “Jesus lover of my soul” (gag) illustrates and there is masculine worship music such as “A mighty fortress is our God” or “The battle belongs to the Lord”. By the way you might want to read through the Psalms because the majority of them have to do with military victories over Israel’s enemies, this should be a given since David was a warrior king. So my question to you is how can you possiblly justify choosing feminized worship music as your “flavor” when most men (except effeminate ones) are wired differently and do not worship like girls. Are you going to simply try to force men to worship like girls, because if that is your intention you are going to fail huge and you will become one of the reasons why “Men Hate Going To Church” as David Murrow’s book is entitled.
In Christ The Victorious King,
Doc Allen
I’d be interested in getting feedback from guys looking for ‘manly’ worship songs with regard to two of my songs:
Holy Moment and No Way I Am Not Ashamed (the version with Jimmy Aweira on vocals)
both can be found at: http://recentrainfall.com/page4.html and my email is listed on that site.
So, if you are interested in listening and giving your comments, I appreciate it!
I am greatly saddened by the preceeding comments by Mark Driscoll. Has he forgotten that we have an audience of one…only one. He sounds like a modern day Cain to me, jealous and angry because the Lord has chosen to annoint and use in greater measure others who are unlike him. His murder is slander and accusation of his brothers in Christ. Jesus prayed for our unity and love for one another. Comments and leadership like this is sinful and a cancer to the Bride of Christ. Is it no wonder that the very people we are commissioned to reach are repulsed by the way that we treat each other! Maybe it is time to go back to basics and remember what worship is all about and repent for the rebellious religious public displays of self indulgence that are being suggested. As for “manly worship” am I understanding correctly? Unless “worship” meets a “manly” test there are those who will not participate? Isn’t that like being asked by Jesus when He was alive to become one of His disciples and telling Him,”No thanks those others guys that travel with you are too strange so I’ll pass.” God inhabits the praises of His people… are you saying you willfully refuse to meet with Him because the worship leader or songs are not to your liking? As for songs from the bottom up… I am a songwriter and my songs are sung around the world. I speak from experience when I say some songs are written and some songs are inspired. Inspired songs I would dare say are the ones we all desire. Therefore lets put away this nonsense and focus our time and hearts on the King and His Kingdom allowing Him to write the music that most exhalts and blesses Him. Then we will write the songs that are for our families, churches, cities, countries and the whole earth.
That Driscoll can be a hard scoundrel, alright. But when he’s right, he’s right. As for the previous comment, I don’t think I would be too quick to equate having a recording contract with CCM with being anointed by God. There is a great deal of music out there that sells, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it is anointed by God for service in his church. Mark is right about the effeminate thing. Record labels produce what sells. And what sells is a reflection of our society. And our society promotes a watered down version of what it means to be a Christian man. Consequently, the music produced by record companies reflects that. Each church should be seeking to worship God in a way that reflects its own context, relevant to the people who are doing the worshipping, rather than merely falling in line with what comes out of Nashville.
Patty Marine’s comments above strike a chord (nice pun) with me. Maybe someone (Doc?) can come along and define what a ‘manly’ worship service looks like in terms of song choice, style, anything at all? By the way, the chest beaters here must ‘hate’ Keith Green and his songs like ‘Oh Lord, you’re beatiful’.
“Okay, I admit to not being objective about this quote. But in my opinion, Mark Driscoll and this comment rocks! Although this is just one part of the issue, the style of worship music, worship lyrics, how many worship songs, how worship music is presented, what does the worship singer look like, how does the worship leader hold himself, etc. is one of the many reasons that men are bored stiff in church, why men are not challenged in church and why men are turned off and not coming to church. For churches to bury their head in the sand and say, “If men don’t like the music, then tough crap!” is the wrong answer. If we know that when a man comes to church, the family will follow, why aren’t we making churches a place that men feel welcome. I went to a church on Sunday that has made changes to target men. I not only saw a whole lot of strong men. I also saw a whole lot of happy women who love seeing men get excited and passionate about church.
Mike Ellis”
that’s quite a statement there, mike. i am a worship leader, and i do play guitar, and i have long hair, and oh my gosh…i even have earrings! but guess what, mike…about 1100 people come to my church on Sunday morning, and you know what? about 50 percent of those are men! and a lot of the biggest compliments and thank you’s that i recieve on a Sunday morning come from some of the most many men i’ve ever met, so i’m not quite sure where the assumption that churches are dying because “men” don’t like the music comes from, because i sure don’t see it happening.
however, if i could, for one moment, turn your argument around, i would say that this incredibly narrow version of what makes a “man” is part of the reason that so many men’s ministries miss out on attracting a large population of men (who, despite your definition of “man” are artistic, musical, writers, unathletic, and are still men in every sense of the word). why is it that all men’s events and study materials have to feature sports analogies, we have to hear sermons from football coaches, etc? you’re alienating a whole segment of the population, but i bet you don’t think you need to change what you do. you’d rather the church change it’s music to fit your idea of “manly.” what do you suggest we do, dress in flannel and sing “the lumberjack song”?
i know this comes across sounding harsh, but i just think we need to be careful about making assumptions that we know what all men should be like.
by the way, i’ve read “wild at heart”, and it was one of my favorite books, in terms of making me realize my place as a man, but it in no way made me feel like i needed to become a hunter, a sports fan, or a music hater, so where do we get off thinking that this is what a man is “supposed to be?” can someone enlighten me?
Mark has a good point. But I think it spills over to keyboard playing worship leaders too. Are we men? Are we women? I play acoustic guitar for God and I want to be happy at the end of worshipping the living, mighty God. Many “great” worship leaders make me want to stab myself during some of the choruses. How many times do we have to sing the same two lines in nasly voices before we can move on to the next song? It is not the Worship Leaders job to set a mood or manipulating peoples feelings or dimming the lights. It is his job to bring it real. Lead in worshipping God by facilitating edifying music that glorifies Jesus. Too many WL’s make it into a performance or concert type of thing where the congregation occasionally gets to sing when the “praise team” is not soloing. Let the people lift there voices for God…not for them or you.
Guys, do not be dogmatic about this. Remember this: Titus 3:9 “avoid foolish controversies”
DanielR wrote: “I agree the characterization of “some effeminate guy on an acoustic guitar” is un-called for and out of line. But then, that’s nothing new from Mark. With Mark it’s 50/50 whether it was unintentionally or purposefully inflamatory, ignorance or attitude. You gotta take anything Mark says with a grain of salt…” What a sorry indictment.
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I do not mean to be offesive at all… But I will say this, I agree with Driscoll to a point. We have to see ourselves as “fishers of men”, but all fishermen know you need different bait, for different fish… I am one who was brought to christ not by a gentle voice singing a love song on an acoustic guitar…but by a scream for joy on a distorted SG.. We are to be in the world and we are to spread the word, and personally I feel we should use everything we can. The Cookie Cutter stuff coming out of CCM is just that, and lacks any personality. Even established bands like jars of clay or Third Day are pushing and pushing trying to break through to an entire generation basically raised not knowing anything about church or god, but what they see at funerals and weddings. Wake up! We want people to listen to and enjoy this music we want it stuck in there heads and we want to use it to bring them closer to Jesus. As far as writing our own music I say ROCK ON!! think about where hymns will be in 20 years….. and be honest.
I definately think that if Dricoll’s comment was meant to be offensive, it was totally, but for alot of the populus, he’s right when it comes to the musical tastes of alot of the people not in churches. I know many people who would much rather sing the (very) simple “Ohohoh” routine that makes up the secular techno song “Zombie Nation” than sing anything played in alot of the churches around here in Houston, Texas. It’s not that they don’t have a heart to worship God, but they are not turned on at all by any that they hear. Many meet with God privately at home in their own atmosphere. I myself can only stand so much mainstream worship before I collapse, and it was only since my discovery of Andy Hunter that I was able to listen to some worthwhile techno/trance/house and get a Christian message at the same time.
This is not to say that there aren’t places for the prevalent forms of worship we see in churches today, as I also know a few men who would sing or hum those “prom songs” nonstop if given the chance…
If I had my way, we’d have a special place at church for sword-dance worship. That’s actually in Psalms, too! I absolutely love using the longsword, and visualize myself worshipping God with it in my hands as the songs play…
I agree with Pastor Mark here. Worship leaders that lead congregational worship today are sometimes leaning too hard on the new style of music out there and forgetting that it is about the worship, not the style. On top of that, writing your own music for your church is extremely helpful to the church body. When worship songs are written to fit a particular theme of the teaching that the lead pastor provides, the congregation can find it easier to worship and respond to the teaching they have just heard (or have been hearing). However, the quality of the song should be a good reflection of the creativity of God. It is not acceptable to spend very little time on writing a song, having it sound awful and have simple lyrics that turn out to be just another "prom song to Jesus". When you offer your art to the church it should be kept in mind that you are in fact reflecting a characteristic of God Almighty…creativity. And so worship leaders should only offer their best to their congregation for worship.
As a sidenote, i feel that worship songwriters should have most of their work inspired from the Bible. I am very happy that the Glory Revealed projects were done for the church to use as worship. The songs they produced are amazingly effective to congregational worship, knowing that the song is the very eternal words of God placed into song. Absolutely great songs have come from those two projects, and i urge other worship songwriters to do the same thing as they are impacted by passages they read in their Bible. Also, i am only seventeen, and even i like hymns! I think some of the best songwriting the church has had is inside the old pew hymnal. I feel that a lot of the new worship leaders are throwing out the old completely instead of finding ways of making the words of those old hymns be effective to younger congregations.